Having no invisible means of support versus having a higher power

[Doubting Thomas]

I am not here to tell you how to live or to find out from you at 33 years of age how I should live.  Let's face it if an adult makes it to 25 years of age and hasn't figured out how to live in a normal peaceful way, then that would be unheard of to me and most likely to anybody.  So I am interested in discussing certain ideas about living with a higher power or having no invisible means of support.

On one hand I feel that a human is not being honest with himself or herself if they feel that they never need to ask a question from time to time of something that would be a higher power.  For example perhaps myself I would like to ask what would Jesus do?  Or what would Spinoza think?  Or what would George Carver have me do stay in the field of mathematics or quit and go into something else?

I understand that today in the twenty first century, God is dead, not just in the sense that a lot of people are very secular now, but also in the sense that for myself as a theist existentialist no matter how long I live I will never get the answers that I strive for, or be able to verify the existence of God.  Nor can I honestly hope to have an honest discussion with God about this great enigma we call existence, and science may have answers but it doesn't have the answers such as is there a Creator or are we the product of a brute facts?  So we will never get the answers and honestly I think science doesn't care about these answers, it just likes to explain things in the simplest ways that are possible, however all these facts could be nestled in a necessary being a God of some sort that purposely tried to bring humans or certain humans into existence, who knows really?

Either way I think it is really weird that we exist, and I know that our planet was just the product of a huge stochastic process and this is just one amazing out come of that which basically had the odds of occurring at roughly one out of a googaplex to the googaplex, as slim as it is for that to occur it still can happen, but I think Spinoza was onto something when he considered nature to be God.  I think that there is some magical guiding force that helped insure that a lot of neat things would work out to insure the creation of the biosphere on the Earth in a way that looks naturalistic and materialistic, but still this much stuff together when it works together it can help things to work out and even give humans something of a sixth sense for danger.  The trick of using our sixth sense though is to not let trouble fly in under the radar, and do not get so paranoid that you can't live a meaningful life that uses some modern conveniences such as the cell phone or a car.

I know that most people here do not believe in any magic at all and consider it to be superstition.  I maybe a little bit superstitious and more than most people here but I do not believe I am being honest with myself if I feel that I cannot pray from time to time, or feel that from time to time I really think to myself how lucky can you get?  I mean I feel pretty lucky to be alive, I don't even play the lottery because I won it already and I cash in every day that I am alive.

Something to think about I hope you don't mind me sharing, share if you care but please do share!

Sincerely,

The redoubtable doubting thomas

[none]

pray for patience, lots of it.

[nontheocrat]

I am one of those atheists who not only does not believe in any gods, but also do not think there is any merit to anything supernatural. I have no problem at all with the fact we know nothing about what may have preceded the big bang and see no reason to attribute intelligence to our origins.

I can assure you that I never, ever have an impulse to ask a "higher power" for anything. The thought never even occurs to me, it's an entirely alien way of thinking, no dishonesty involved. I might wonder what someone more intelligent might do in a situation but I wouldn't call Spinoza or Einstein a "higher power". Not sure what you are getting at there.

I always think it is funny when someone says something like "it is weird that we exist" because if we didn't exist we couldn't ask the question. I suppose I'm simplistic but when I look at humanity and the way we behave, I'm not that awestruck by our existence, I just see us as the hairless ape on it's way toward intelligence but not quite there yet.

I am fascinated by people who think differently from the way I do and appreciate you sharing your thoughts.

[Doubting Thomas]

Well about this higher power idea.  I think for myself with weight problems, and being an under earner, and having an alcoholic father.   These problems make me feel that I would be dishonest if I didn't pray to God for guidance or courage to do what I feel I must do.  I am thinking about learning more about christian existentialism, but not be an extremist about it.  I feel that if I pray from time to time or ask God for the strength to carry on I feel that there maybe some life force that guides the evolutionary process, some kind of force that helps things to work out for certain people in certain instances.

I know that atheists have the problem of evil to convince them that there is no God for some of them, and also there is the worry that a belief in a higher power may not actually ever be known, nor can a theist ever be sure that he or she is worshiping something that doesn't exist in any verifiable sense.  However if a person is sincere in how they approach life or in their prayer life, then at least they are being true to themselves as a believer or a nonbeliever.  Perhaps certain people do not need to pray or have some belief in a higher power?  However I feel that if I am to be true to myself I think I need to take the stance that some things work out just a little too good to be just random luck, maybe there is some like force at work?  Something like from Star Wars?  Either way we can't really know, but the way I feel about it, some things have just worked out a little too well for me to believe that there wasn't a little something from the Universe trying to help people accomplish what they needed to accomplish. 

Call it "The Problem of Good."  Yes nature is very cruel and I have seen people suffer crushing misfortune, but there is something mysterious about life, that if a person survives a certain problem, life is still worth living, under almost all but the harshest of circumstances.  Circumstances such like, that can be caused by mad science and religious propaganda.  However, what I would like to do as a theist existentialist is get back to the roots of religion.  I would like to pray and go to a catholic church because I feel that the catholic church is open minded to existentialism, and understand the problem that exists for humans today as believers and nonbelievers alike.  Specifically the problem being that God is dead for western civilization.  The belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ just isn't as reinforced as it used to be back in the middle ages and it isn't philosophically tenable to believe in a literal bible interpretation of the world.  I think some catholic priests if not all understand that what you learn in Sunday school, isn't really how to approach religion especially if you want to get back at the roots of religion.

Please excuse my long absence I had a busy week and a half and hope you like what I had to say.  It really takes all kinds to make the world go round.

Take care,

DT

[wheels5894]

I really do not see the point of anything supernatural unless we have reason to think something is 'there' so to speak. I can quite see how prayer can help concentrate the mind and help it find its own answers and I know there is some confort in thinking that there is a god looking out for one, thought I don't see the point myself.

[Kimberly]

When Malia was having heart problems I wanted something to pray to. Mostly because I was overwhelmed with fear and knew it was not in my hands to "fix". I came pretty close to praying but decided rather to ask a lot of questions when I talked to the Dr and to put my "faith" in their hands. It turned out to work for me. The Dr was really cool. She spent about 15 min on the phone explaining things to me that I did not understand on two occasions. She gave me sense of peace, that she was a competent Dr who cared about the life of my child. I was still worried but when it was all said and done they said the heart "problems" she was experiencing were normal. This was hard for me to grasp on to. On one hand I have me with no medical training and I have to trust some who does to accurately diagnose my daughter. On the other hand I have a daughter who says her heart is raising for no reason and it scares her. But I got the feedback from the Dr that there is a normal rage that a child her age's heart will beat per minute. Every time she had an episode she was wearing a monitor and it recorded her heart beat. She was okay. Of course I still have fear every time she tells me it's happening, but I trust that this Dr who is a pediatric specialist did all the proper testing. Malia also had an ultrasound on her heart and an EKG. All were normal, minus a small heart murmur which would not cause her heart to raise, and will never affect her health. Had I prayed, I would not have gotten these results. I may not have spent the time asking the Dr so many questions, I would have instead relied on "God" to take care of her.

I know this example is not the same thing you are talking about but it's close. If you want answers look to someone who is qualified to answer the question. If the question is not yet answerable keep it on the back burner and research it at a later date. If there comes a time when you find the question unanswerable then it is what it is. Praying to something won't bring you those answers.

However, if you find comfort in praying then by all means do so. I do however suggest that you not limit your research while waiting on an answer from "God".

[pattylt]

Prayer, meditation and concentrated thinking are all pretty much the same in my book.  While people think they are directing their prayers to their god, they are really just performing a concentrated thought process.  If I had any belief that concentrated thought would have the doctors perform their job better with my micropreemie granddaughter, I would have done so.  Instead, like you Kim, I asked questions and demanded honest answers.  It most likely gave me much better peace of mind to know exactly what we were facing than leaving it up to god.  Unfortunately, god never answers questions in an understandable manner to me so it is unlikely that I would have obtained much peace, much less answers.

Same with my father dying.  The doctors kept me posted and up to date on his decline.  Even my very Jewish stepmother looked up to the ceiling and commented, "so, take him already"!  Nope, not for 2 more days when I was finally allowed to make the final decisions because my step mom wasn't getting many answers from god (she was asking like crazy).

Prayer was one of the final break points to my deconversion.  I prayed like crazy to god to answer even question, give me one sign, show me he existed in one little way and zero response.

It was like my brain rewired instantly and clearly.  All of life made more sense... I just had to ask the right people the right questions.

[wheels5894]

However,   if you find comfort in praying then by all means do so. I do however   suggest that you not limit your research while waiting on an answer from   "God".                                                                                                                                                               

I know how you felt. My son was born with a small hole in the heart septum and had to have investigation when he was 18 months old. Yet prayer would not have helped I  think. the doctors had the work to do and they were the ones who coul,d influence the outcome. Praying, even if we asssume a god is listening, would at best only cause us to think the problem was know to the god (who ought to have known about it before being asked) and the chances of an intervention would be very small.

In this case, the doctor is much more likely to be the one to talk to and to get help from.

[Kimberly]

I know how you felt. My son was born with a small hole in the heart septum and had to have investigation when he was 18 months old. Yet prayer would not have helped I  think. the doctors had the work to do and they were the ones who coul,d influence the outcome. Praying, even if we asssume a god is listening, would at best only cause us to think the problem was know to the god (who ought to have known about it before being asked) and the chances of an intervention would be very small.

In this case, the doctor is much more likely to be the one to talk to and to get help from.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know how scary that is. What did they end up doing? Is he ok now?

[Doubting Thomas]

I appreciate your responses.  It is interesting talking about prayer with atheists.  I learned today that word skeptic comes from the ancient Greek language, that it means seeker.  I do think of myself as a heathen or heretic who is a seeker really who prays to George Carver, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu and Buddha, from time to time I just pick a different one, whatever I am in the mood for.  I go to a catholic church too and am trying to improve my prayer life and spiritual health.

About what to pray for, I imagine praying for patience when trying to find answers to problems is good and maybe I could get a hint from a higher power that could guide me in a new direction? Perhaps allow me to be in tune with a new business idea or career move?  Perhaps I can pray to have a clear understanding of Spinoza's philosophy about how nature can be thought of a deity in itself and how it relates to human beings in a way that is consistent with human knowledge about the universe?  Why not pray for that?

So I am definitely a seeker and I hope to get some answers, there are definitely things that we can't explain or ever know the answers to, and life isn't about having the best philosophical ideaology loaded with dogma.  Life is about living really being in a state of doing.  Life is what you do, I "do" therefore I am, not I "think" therefore I am.  When you are in the zone and you are doing a job well or just enjoying a walk with a healthy mind and body, that is living the way a human was meant to live in a peaceful way.

One thing I pray for is knowledge about what I am suppose to do for a career given my education, and for the courage to do what I think is important to me provided there is still a way to make money at it.  I remembered I prayed to George Carver and I thought to myself that I could just imagine reaching out to him across time and space and walk right into his office and ask for his blessing to stay in teaching to grant me the courage to stay in this field even though I get scarred and frustrated with students who don't want to learn and write such nasty student evaluations.  As a result of this prayer I have the courage to hope that either I will find work at a college that doesn't mind 75% to 90% to even 100% of the class failing or dropping, and mind you this is pre-algebra at the community college level that I am talking about here.  However I also hope to make enough money this next season to be able to advertise and do the accounting for starting my own tutoring business and a low budget tutoring service at that too.  That way I will get better students who are more motivated so help me Bon Chance - God!

As the artist Seal said - if we are ever going to survive, baby I guess we are going to have to go a little crazy. 

What I say - So what?  That is all that is hiring so what else am I going to do?   work at Mc Donald's again?  No because you are looking at what I am doing!