I will always believe in God.

[Lillium]

I agree with you Nam, there is so much Deja Vu to it I don't even read them anymore.  These are all things that people at one point or another have to sort out for themselves, it looks that way to me anyways.  Either way you can't prove anything, I guess you just hope you aren't believing something that is like inherently toxic nor do you want to believe you are worshiping something that doesn't exist.  Just my $0.02
there.

DT, I think he was referring to my posts in particular, not to the testimonials themselves.  Nam has some sort of personal vendetta, it seems, that's made him jaded towards me.

[Ravenholm]

I think the bible is truthful but not absolutely true.  I think, like humans, it too is error ridden.  But that's okay, the fact that it does have errors makes it an accurate depiction of humanity.  I don't see how anyone can claim that either end of that spectrum accurately describes the bible.  I mean, there are obviously things in the bible that are true or have merit (for instance, I think "thou shalt not kill" is good advice) but there are parts in it that is utter rubbish (homosexuals are an abomination to God, say what?!).

What happened to the facepalm icon?

You can't decide which bit is right (thus from God) and which wrong (thus from prejudiced men) just like that! It equals saying you know the difference between right and wrong anyway, and you don't need Bible telling you any of that, because you know that from the Bible. It is the essence of circular thinking.

But it gets worse - it's the same with everything else. If parts of the Bible are true and parts are BS there's no way to tell which is which without employing circular reasoning. Even then you need some nutty theory on why the all-powerful God didn't care enough to prevent people writing atrocious BS in his name but still prevented them from writing inaccurately about the beliefs you hold most dear.

[jetson]

Rave...

Indeed you are correct, but Lillium will have to discover that for herself.  Cognitive dissonance is real, and apparently not easy to recognize, and remove in all cases.

Have you ever had a moment where you realized that you had been under some illusion of belief that something was a certain way, and was no longer that way?  And you honestly changed your thinking?  It is very difficult, depending on the topic, and the credibility of the "new information".

I believe Lillium may be on this forum precisely because she knows that her beliefs don't match up with reality, and she is looking for that moment to let go.  I could be wrong, of course, but there is a certain amount of doubt about her true intentions as a believer who will "always believe in God" and what she has immersed herself in by being here.

@Lillium, all gods are imaginary.  Letting go of them is the same as hanging on to them.  Your life will not get worse.

[Whateverman]

Funny, Jetson, I was just writing to Raven to say that I disagreed

What happened to the facepalm icon?

You can't decide which bit is right (thus from God) and which wrong (thus from prejudiced men) just like that! It equals saying you know the difference between right and wrong anyway, and you don't need Bible telling you any of that, because you know that from the Bible. It is the essence of circular thinking.

Except that it's clear Lillium's method of determining right & wrong / good & bad does NOT come solely from the Bible.  As such, there's no apparently circularity.

She's doing EXACTLY what we all do: seeking guidance from multiple sources to assess veracity.  Heck, I know you can't show me a Christian who references only the Bible; he/she also references what they believe to be common sense, as well as the opinions of other Christians, their understanding of the words they use, and probably other stuff too.

We all pick and choose what to put our trust in, and most of us differ in the criteria we use to make those choices.  It's unfair to claim Lillium can only use the Bible, or that the Bible is the only method she should be using.

edit: grammar

[jetson]

Yes, Whateverman, you are more correct from the perspective of what really happens, as opposed to what different people think should happen.

Truthfully, no one can follow The Bible literally, for example, because no one knows the literal meanings of the different books, and indeed some of it may never have been meant literally at all.

I suppose there are those who think they know the truth, and they can ramble on and on about what that truth is, but in the end, each of us chooses for ourselves, using whatever method works best.

[Lillium]

You all have good points, I am here to sort through inconsistencies, but I also gather my information, morality, ethics, etc. from a wide array of sources.  A good student looks for information outside of their textbooks to fully understand.  They can use the teacher, the internet, and even other written materials to learn about those subjects.  Like a good student, I'm using outside sources to supplement what I can read from the bible.  Not only that, but I'm looking for alternative opinions so that way I can get a better understanding: one that's as little biased as possible. 

[Ravenholm]

Except that it's clear Lillium's method of determining right & wrong / good & bad does NOT come solely from the Bible.  As such, there's no apparently circularity.

She's doing EXACTLY what we all do: seeking guidance from multiple sources to assess veracity.  Heck, I know you can't show me a Christian who references only the Bible; he/she also references what they believe to be common sense, as well as the opinions of other Christians, their understanding of the words they use, and probably other stuff too.

Yeah, right, but really, claiming the Bible is in any way needed or even significantly useful in shaping one's morality, while you trim it (the Bible) to match your intuitions is pretty much the same thing, only not full-blown.

[Peter B.]

Admin note: Subsequent posts were split off to the ALR.

[Lillium]

Dang it, I just LOVE how my threads are partially being moved to the ALR.  It sucks and is completely rude.

[Peter B.]

You know what would be rude? To leave the threads un-split and let all our unsuspecting guests run into off-topic personal attacks with a long and ugly history while reading what appears to be a perfectly legit, interesting and harmless thread at first sight.

[Lillium]

You know what would be rude? To leave the threads un-split and let all our unsuspecting guests run into off-topic personal attacks with a long and ugly history while reading what appears to be a perfectly legit, interesting and harmless thread at first sight.

I wasn't talking about the act of topic splitting being rude, that's an act of kindness.  I'm talking about the post that caused the split in the first place.  I mean, if he had done that to one post, that would have been understandable; however this one makes two posts that he's had split off into the ALR within the past like two weeks.  Not only that, but the ALR is full of threads that contain nothing but me and him fighting and its senseless! It's completely unnecessary really.  The topic would have been fine without that creepy post in the first place. 

[HAL]

Not only that, but the ALR is full of threads that contain nothing but me and him fighting and its senseless!

People just never will understand or implement the analogy I set up in the first 2 paragraphs of the rules and guidelines...

If you want to find at least one person to blame for the fighting, look in the mirror dear, look in the mirror. If you want to fight - fight. If you don't - don't. I don't know how I can make it any simpler to understand. Has an external spirit taken control of your mind and your fingers making you fight when you'd prefer not to? If not then I'd suggest you practice not fighting when you might otherwise feel like it in the forum, because you'll need this skill in your marriage (so I've heard).

If you want to keep fighting Nam, then perhaps I should place both of you in the Isolation Tank until you are fought out.

[JesusHChrist]

If you want to keep fighting Nam, then perhaps I should place both of you in the Isolation Tank until you are fought out.

You could sell tickets...

[Agga]

I will always believe in God.

1- I'll always smoke pot.
2- I'll never get married.
3- I'll always play the guitar.
4- I'll always want to drive manual cars.
5- I'll never lose my faith in Jesus.

Those are just a few things that I was so very sure about when I was younger.  I've reneged on all of them.


With more time comes more age - - comes more experience - - comes more knowledge - - one can better understand that "always" and "never" (in this context) are concepts, not realities.

My perception of you (of late) is that you seem like a deep and emotionally intelligent young woman who's sucked-up a fair amount of shit as a child.  Me too.  Part of the after-effect of my utterly mad childhood was a need to fall-back on woo and religious wank to make some sort of sense of it all.  I'm not saying that it's the same for you but I find it to be very common amongst theists (myself included back in the day).

Over time, and with a few extra years under my belt, I woke up and realised that my faith in god was actually just faith in the better parts of myself that I'd forgotten how to connect with.


I wonder if, one day, you'll find a place where god isn't a necessity any more.

[Lillium]

People just never will understand or implement the analogy I set up in the first 2 paragraphs of the rules and guidelines...

If you want to find at least one person to blame for the fighting, look in the mirror dear, look in the mirror. If you want to fight - fight. If you don't - don't. I don't know how I can make it any simpler to understand. Has an external spirit taken control of your mind and your fingers making you fight when you'd prefer not to? If not then I'd suggest you practice not fighting when you might otherwise feel like it in the forum, because you'll need this skill in your marriage (so I've heard).

If you want to keep fighting Nam, then perhaps I should place both of you in the Isolation Tank until you are fought out.

I know, was making fun of myself, calling myself senseless, as well as him.  I'm already done fighting though.  And I don't like the idea of being pinned to the ATT Corral (yes! I remember the days it was the the corral instead of the isolation tank) because I really have nothing to say to him so it would be just me sitting there staring at him.  I've taken things to the pms like any proper member should do.

[Lillium]

1- I'll always smoke pot.
2- I'll never get married.
3- I'll always play the guitar.
4- I'll always want to drive manual cars.
5- I'll never lose my faith in Jesus.

Those are just a few things that I was so very sure about when I was younger.  I've reneged on all of them.


With more time comes more age - - comes more experience - - comes more knowledge - - one can better understand that "always" and "never" (in this context) are concepts, not realities.

My perception of you (of late) is that you seem like a deep and emotionally intelligent young woman who's sucked-up a fair amount of s**t as a child.  Me too.  Part of the after-effect of my utterly mad childhood was a need to fall-back on woo and religious wank to make some sort of sense of it all.  I'm not saying that it's the same for you but I find it to be very common amongst theists (myself included back in the day).

Over time, and with a few extra years under my belt, I woke up and realised that my faith in god was actually just faith in the better parts of myself that I'd forgotten how to connect with.


I wonder if, one day, you'll find a place where god isn't a necessity any more.

Actually, yeah, part of the reason I rely on God is because of my horrible childhood.  It seems to me that the more trauma I go through, the more closely I cling to God.  And, I've always wondered myself if perhaps there is a future for me out there without God in it, but from where I am standing, that sadly does not seem likely.

I've tried to purge myself of God before but it always backfires and blows up in my face.  I don't mind believing in God though.  He's like a distant friend that I rarely talk to any more.

^^ I bet your assessment of me would make Nam cringe though.

[Whateverman]

I really hafta apologize for this, because evangelism is one of the last things I ever imagined myself capable of.  However:

Have you considered deism?  Is our understanding of a creator so flawed as to be nearly incomprehensible?  Wouldn't it be possible for a species consumed with a need to become powerful to screw up understanding something so fundamental as the nature of our Creator?

As a deist, I hate myself a little for writing/asking that.  My understanding of the God hypothesis is much less flowery, and much less certain than I implied.  However, I often view the God question as "a very low signal-to-noise ratio":

There's so much crap floating around that discussion and understanding of something so "fundamental" is nearly impossible

PS. yes, this idea could just as easily lead one to reject the notion of deities altogether.  Having a religious background and personal experience which makes me hesitate abandoning the idea completely, I've simply not gone in that direction...

[Agga]

Actually, yeah, part of the reason I rely on God is because of my horrible childhood.  It seems to me that the more trauma I go through, the more closely I cling to God.  And, I've always wondered myself if perhaps there is a future for me out there without God in it, but from where I am standing, that sadly does not seem likely.

Yup. I can certainly understand that as I've been in those shoes.  Nowadays, when the shit is piling on as it frequently does (and I include my past issues coming back around in my head), I tend to fall back on critical thinking to accept the practical realities of life.  Do i find this to be more effective overall than my old faith in god?  You bet I do.  Fear is a powerful motivator to keep us dependant on someone else, including god.

When I first began to lose my faith it scared the crap out of me because I felt very insecure being in the cosmos on my own.  Funny thing about that is that before I became a christian I never felt that fear.  Weird huh? 

I know some people argue that false hope is no hope at all, and I can see the argument.  However, in reality, if a person is beaten down for long enough, false hope can be just the ticket to pull them through to a place where they can find real hope.  So, sometimes, a *personal* faith in god can keep a person going; not everyone is as strong or settled as the next.
Faith certainly kept me going for a good while.  But, there is a catch.  Too much reliance on faith can leave us addicted to it.  Like with booze or certain drugs, we can get so used to the confidence we get when we're high, that when we're not high we can feel so pathetic that we want to get high again.  I see religious faith in this light. 

As with drug addiction, it isn't really as easy as just stopping cold.  Time is a factor, as is finding things to replace the highs and lows of drug use.

I've tried to purge myself of God before but it always backfires and blows up in my face.  I don't mind believing in God though.  He's like a distant friend that I rarely talk to any more.

I can certainly relate to that.  I hate religion.. no, I HAAAAATE religion, but if a single person wants to believe in god and doesn't allow that belief to be the fostering of bigotry and homophobia etc etc etc yada yada.. then I see no real harm in it.  However, if you were my friend in real life, I'd probably try to help you find other ways to cope with childhood baggage (yeah right, like I even know myself ).  If you don't have that right now, you may in the future.  From what I've read of your posts, you strike me as someone who's weathered a lot of storms and is still here to tell the tale.  That's gotta count for something, god or no god.

If you ever come out of your faith-place and look back, you may do what many of us do and think.. "hold on.. are you telling me that I got MYSELF through that massive pile of shit all along.. how much more could I have dealt with if I'd believed in myself from the word go!?!?"
 
That realisation is.. well.. it's empowering beyond anything I've ever experienced as a christian.  I've heard most de-converts say much the same thing.

Meh, anyway, I'm not here to talk you out of your faith.  That's a personal choice we make when we weigh it on the scales of our individual lives.  Now may not be the right time for you.  Life has a funny way of surprising us, though.  The older I get the more that becomes apparent.