Author Topic: The War on Drugs  (Read 309 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JNTB

  • The Intimidator
  • Moderator
  • Master Philosopher
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • IQ: +359/-38
  • Bright, Rational, Atheist
  • Ideology: Atheist
The War on Drugs
« on: June 30, 2010, 09:15:06 AM »
Interesting ...

Did You Know: War on Drugs Edition


« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 09:34:45 AM by Peter B. »

Offline Jim

  • Minister of Funny Walks
  • Master Philosopher
  • ********
  • Posts: 3313
  • IQ: +300/-8
  • Ideology: Ideot
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2010, 09:23:18 AM »
Excellent find, J.  Thanks for posting.
Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.   Arthur Schopenhauer

Online Smokeskin

  • Transhumanist
  • Master Philosopher
  • ********
  • Posts: 3017
  • IQ: +194/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • Speak softly and carry a big stick
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2010, 12:28:05 PM »
Nothing indicates that legalizing drugs increases the number of drug addicts. Fewer people die from drugs when it is legal. These two facts have clearly been demonstrated in countries that legalize or semi-legalize drugs.

I honestly cannot see any other meaningful metric than those two. There seem to be absolutely no reason for a society to have anti-drug laws.

On top of this it is extremely costly to enforce anti-drug laws, put people in prison, people with a rap sheet have trouble getting a proper life together afterwards, drug addicts are forced to steal and prostitute themselves to support their habit, and so on.

It is intensely stupid.
The two rules for success in life:
1. Never share all of your knowledge.

Offline JNTB

  • The Intimidator
  • Moderator
  • Master Philosopher
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • IQ: +359/-38
  • Bright, Rational, Atheist
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2010, 06:54:21 PM »
It is intensely stupid.

Yeah, America is like that at times.



Offline JNTB

  • The Intimidator
  • Moderator
  • Master Philosopher
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • IQ: +359/-38
  • Bright, Rational, Atheist
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2010, 07:14:42 PM »
Excellent find, J.  Thanks for posting.

Andrew Sullivan found it. Damn, crazy liberal .. er, I mean, conservative.




Offline CodyTowner

  • Sage
  • *****
  • Posts: 295
  • IQ: +7/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • ...stay awhile and breathe me in...
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2010, 09:42:31 PM »
Legalize the drugs. Put some regulations on it, but only to avoid deaths and overdoses. Hell, let doctors shoot you up with some government-approved heroin. So long as people aren't dying from it, what's the big deal? Making it legal would cut out all the shady operations of dealers and transporters. Thus saving a lot more lives. Scarface could have lived, you know.

Offline DamWeis

  • Novitiate
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • IQ: +0/-0
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2010, 10:17:32 PM »
Haha. What I love about the war on drugs is the war on your mind. Convincing people that Marijuana use is unethical but alcohol use is acceptable. That prescription drugs are amazing until you obtain them illegally.

A lot of the population wouldn't consider alcohol a drug until you point it out to them. Answers like "Well it's different". When ever this question gets brought up it's always "Oh another stoner trying to rationalize legalization of pot".
 

Online Smokeskin

  • Transhumanist
  • Master Philosopher
  • ********
  • Posts: 3017
  • IQ: +194/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • Speak softly and carry a big stick
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2010, 04:31:14 AM »
Legalize the drugs. Put some regulations on it, but only to avoid deaths and overdoses. Hell, let doctors shoot you up with some government-approved heroin. So long as people aren't dying from it, what's the big deal? Making it legal would cut out all the shady operations of dealers and transporters. Thus saving a lot more lives. Scarface could have lived, you know.

Don't forget all the damage done to innocent citizens when addicts have to acquire money by stealing and robbing, and all the good that could be done with the money wasted on fighting drugs. This isn't just about the addicts.
The two rules for success in life:
1. Never share all of your knowledge.

Offline JNTB

  • The Intimidator
  • Moderator
  • Master Philosopher
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • IQ: +359/-38
  • Bright, Rational, Atheist
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2010, 04:54:51 AM »
Don't forget all the damage done to innocent citizens when addicts have to acquire money by stealing and robbing, and all the good that could be done with the money wasted on fighting drugs. This isn't just about the addicts.

If we funded treatment plans for people who have become addicted to drugs, we would probably have a 60-70% drop in our homeless population. Most of the people living on the streets are alcoholics/drug addicts, and the rest are mentally disturbed -- sometimes both.


Offline CodyTowner

  • Sage
  • *****
  • Posts: 295
  • IQ: +7/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • ...stay awhile and breathe me in...
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2010, 08:44:53 AM »

If we funded treatment plans for people who have become addicted to drugs, we would probably have a 60-70% drop in our homeless population. Most of the people living on the streets are alcoholics/drug addicts, and the rest are mentally disturbed -- sometimes both.

Alright, I'm addressing this. For those of you familiar with Ithaca, you know we have a very high homeless rate in this town. I know a lot of them because I was homeless myself, when I was only 16. That lasted until just a few months ago.

JNTB, your comment was extremely ignorant. I know a lot of homeless people, even kids as young as 15, who are sleeping on the streets right now. They are neither addicts nor mentally disturbed. They're simply unlucky. When you've been homeless for a year, and interact with people in that situation on a personal level, then come back and try and make that comment again.

We fund plenty of treatment plans. There are tons of rehabilitation clinics everywhere. It's not like addicts don't have access to these places.

WHY ARE DRUGS SO BAD?!?!?

Just the word 'drug' itself has such a negative connotation, it's sickening. Why is getting high such a bad thing? Can anyone explain this to me?



[modbreak=Peter B.]EDIT: Quotes fixed.[/modbreak]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 10:07:11 AM by Peter B. »

Online pattylt

  • Savant
  • ******
  • Posts: 936
  • IQ: +81/-8
  • Gender: Female
  • Alex...He never met a meal he didn't like!
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2010, 09:53:21 AM »
WHY ARE DRUGS SO BAD?!?!?

I struggle with this question.  I used quite a few drugs in my youth... in fact, probably most of them.  I never became an addict or robbed someone due to using.  I also didn't accomplish much while high, either.

On the one hand, the "war on drugs" is BS and the money thrown at this program could be much better spent but I am unsure if I want to legalize drugs either.  I agree with all the points made in favor of legalization.. it can be taxed, it gets the market out of the hands of criminals, abusers will abuse regardless of legality but I mentally come to a screeching halt when I consider a world of legalized drugs.

Do I want the pilot flying my plane to be stoned?  Do I want my surgeon high.  Of course not just as I don't want them drunk but we have a pretty good medical cutoff point for knowing when alcohol will affect judgment.  We don't have this with pot... all we can do is say someone has used pot in the last several weeks.

Marijuana has a few legitimate medical uses.  We all know that 98% of Legal Marijuana users don't fit those categories and are just plain old getting stoned.  Are their lives improved by this and is it truly neutral?  This is where I get a bit flakey on the issue.

Would we include narcotics?  I'd love to get some vicodins every month but how long before use becomes abuse?  Help me think this through, please? 
I have always liked a dog as long as it isn't spelled backwards.

Offline jetson

  • Theorist
  • ***
  • Posts: 75
  • IQ: +3/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2010, 10:12:27 AM »
So, at times, depending on who you speak to, it seems as though many people agree that the money being spent on the drug war is being wasted.  I would hesitate to think that if we sampled the thoughts of citizens, that they would agree on better ways to use the money though.  I have a suspicion that the reason we can't change this situation is because of people who think that drug addicts/users/abusers are immoral and need to get right with God by stopping their use of drugs.  Which brings me to the point that these are the very people getting in the way of ideas that will actually help anyone.

Just like with abortion and same-sex marriage, it is clear that there is no secular argument whatsoever that abortions are inherently bad, or that same-sex marriage will be the downfall of civilization as we know it.  Once again, religion and its adherents are impeding the growth of humanity.  Fuck.
"All gods are imaginary" - Jetson

Offline Lillium

  • Wifey & Wobbling Behemoth
  • Master Philosopher
  • ********
  • Posts: 2705
  • IQ: +67/-52
  • Gender: Female
  • aka GamerGirl
    • My FaceBook
  • Ideology: Christian
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2010, 03:21:43 PM »
I am against the use of all tobacco, alcohol, and non-prescription/OTC medication.  However, I do think we need to legalize them.  They're all cash crops, so to speak, and generate a lot of revenue and I think that by banning drugs like marijuana, we're missing out on a great opportunity to generate revenue.  Also, I think legalizing weed would help keep a lot of people out of jail due to non-violent marijuana related crimes.  So we would be saving money that way too.  Crime rates would certainly go down and I think it would create more jobs.  So how do we help put an end to the war on drugs? Well, we can't seem to beat them, why not join them? ;)


"I sought out to find a friend and could not find one there,
I sought out to be a friend and found one everywhere."
~my youth pastor

Online pattylt

  • Savant
  • ******
  • Posts: 936
  • IQ: +81/-8
  • Gender: Female
  • Alex...He never met a meal he didn't like!
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2010, 07:22:47 PM »
I am against the use of all tobacco, alcohol, and non-prescription/OTC medication.  However, I do think we need to legalize them.  They're all cash crops, so to speak, and generate a lot of revenue and I think that by banning drugs like marijuana, we're missing out on a great opportunity to generate revenue.  Also, I think legalizing weed would help keep a lot of people out of jail due to non-violent marijuana related crimes.  So we would be saving money that way too.  Crime rates would certainly go down and I think it would create more jobs.  So how do we help put an end to the war on drugs? Well, we can't seem to beat them, why not join them? ;)
Here is the problem I see with this view:  What happens when someone doing a job instead harms someone else because he/she was too intoxicated to perform it in a safe manner (think doctor, pilot, taxi driver, nurse, etc.) 
If they can legally use a substance when not on the job, and we do not have any way to determine if they were intoxicated during their job, how do we prosecute them for failure to do their job due to intoxication?  Do we just decide that stoned professionals will still do their job properly?  Do we assume that professionals will never perform their job stoned?  Do we give up our right to sue for neglect/damages due to being stoned?  This is where I struggle.
I have always liked a dog as long as it isn't spelled backwards.

Offline Lillium

  • Wifey & Wobbling Behemoth
  • Master Philosopher
  • ********
  • Posts: 2705
  • IQ: +67/-52
  • Gender: Female
  • aka GamerGirl
    • My FaceBook
  • Ideology: Christian
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2010, 01:44:12 PM »
I am against the use of all tobacco, alcohol, and non-prescription/OTC medication.  However, I do think we need to legalize them.  They're all cash crops, so to speak, and generate a lot of revenue and I think that by banning drugs like marijuana, we're missing out on a great opportunity to generate revenue.  Also, I think legalizing weed would help keep a lot of people out of jail due to non-violent marijuana related crimes.  So we would be saving money that way too.  Crime rates would certainly go down and I think it would create more jobs.  So how do we help put an end to the war on drugs? Well, we can't seem to beat them, why not join them? ;)
Here is the problem I see with this view:  What happens when someone doing a job instead harms someone else because he/she was too intoxicated to perform it in a safe manner (think doctor, pilot, taxi driver, nurse, etc.) 
If they can legally use a substance when not on the job, and we do not have any way to determine if they were intoxicated during their job, how do we prosecute them for failure to do their job due to intoxication?  Do we just decide that stoned professionals will still do their job properly?  Do we assume that professionals will never perform their job stoned?  Do we give up our right to sue for neglect/damages due to being stoned?  This is where I struggle.

That's why there needs to be heavy regulations upon drugs and any intoxicating substance.  It's kind of like you cannot go to work drunk if you want to keep your job.

How do you prosecute? If you suspect they are intoxicated by marijuana, then do a UA to find out.  You may say that a person needs a warrant to do so, but perhaps they can say that UA's may be administered by employers due to reasonable suspicion of intoxication.  Also, there are signs and symptoms of intoxication, right? There are ways to tell if someone is stoned.  I've been around high people.  The ones that are too high to work are easy to point out.  The mildly stoned ones can easily perform their duties.


"I sought out to find a friend and could not find one there,
I sought out to be a friend and found one everywhere."
~my youth pastor

Online pattylt

  • Savant
  • ******
  • Posts: 936
  • IQ: +81/-8
  • Gender: Female
  • Alex...He never met a meal he didn't like!
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2010, 03:15:26 PM »
Nope, Lil.  You are thinking in terms of alcohol... think in terms of nicotine instead.  We do not have the ability to tell by measurements if someone is stoned at a certain point in time like we can with alcohol.  We know the average rate per weight that someone processes alcohol and can pinpoint pretty damn well if they were past a certain limit of intoxication at a certain point in time. 

We have no ability to do that with marijuana.  The detection window of THC is over two weeks from a single usage and well over a month in heavy users.  If we can not tell WHEN they were intoxicated, we have lost the ability to PROVE they were.  People saying someone was acting stoned isn't very good evidence and who gets to decide that ?

If I had a surgical procedure am I in a position to determine if my doc was acting stoned?  I'm probably more stoned than him!   If he smoked a joint 3 days before my surgery can I sue him for being stoned?  Well, the tests can not tell if it is 3 days or 3 hours before... it just isn't processed like alcohol.  Now do you see my issue?
I have always liked a dog as long as it isn't spelled backwards.

Offline Ravenholm

  • Logician
  • ****
  • Posts: 185
  • IQ: +20/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Ideology: Ignostic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2010, 04:52:55 PM »
Don't forget all the damage done to innocent citizens when addicts have to acquire money by stealing and robbing, and all the good that could be done with the money wasted on fighting drugs. This isn't just about the addicts.
I don't get it.  If the drugs were legal, then addicts wouldn't be turning to crime? Or they would be less addicted? How so?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 04:56:06 PM by Ravenholm »

Offline CodyTowner

  • Sage
  • *****
  • Posts: 295
  • IQ: +7/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • ...stay awhile and breathe me in...
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2010, 09:40:49 AM »
Nope, Lil.  You are thinking in terms of alcohol... think in terms of nicotine instead.  We do not have the ability to tell by measurements if someone is stoned at a certain point in time like we can with alcohol.  We know the average rate per weight that someone processes alcohol and can pinpoint pretty damn well if they were past a certain limit of intoxication at a certain point in time. 

We have no ability to do that with marijuana.  The detection window of THC is over two weeks from a single usage and well over a month in heavy users.  If we can not tell WHEN they were intoxicated, we have lost the ability to PROVE they were.  People saying someone was acting stoned isn't very good evidence and who gets to decide that ?

If I had a surgical procedure am I in a position to determine if my doc was acting stoned?  I'm probably more stoned than him!   If he smoked a joint 3 days before my surgery can I sue him for being stoned?  Well, the tests can not tell if it is 3 days or 3 hours before... it just isn't processed like alcohol.  Now do you see my issue?

Umm... that happens NOW. Even though marijuana is illegal, the detection window remains the same. If your surgeon was getting illegally stoned, what would it change? Either way, you can't prove he was stoned when he nicked your artery. So what would legalization change anyway? Pilots get high, doctors get high, hell just about everyone gets high nowadays. Legalizing it wouldn't change whether they were flying a plane or operating stoned or not. And I would hope surgeons and pilots would be smarter than to get stoned before their job.

Online Kimberly

  • Just a girl.
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Philosopher
  • *****
  • Posts: 6640
  • IQ: +651/-220
  • Gender: Female
  • Breaking ATT since 11-10-08
    • Official ATT Facebook
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2010, 11:46:28 AM »
Nope, Lil.  You are thinking in terms of alcohol... think in terms of nicotine instead.  We do not have the ability to tell by measurements if someone is stoned at a certain point in time like we can with alcohol.  We know the average rate per weight that someone processes alcohol and can pinpoint pretty damn well if they were past a certain limit of intoxication at a certain point in time. 

We have no ability to do that with marijuana.  The detection window of THC is over two weeks from a single usage and well over a month in heavy users.  If we can not tell WHEN they were intoxicated, we have lost the ability to PROVE they were.  People saying someone was acting stoned isn't very good evidence and who gets to decide that ?

If I had a surgical procedure am I in a position to determine if my doc was acting stoned?  I'm probably more stoned than him!   If he smoked a joint 3 days before my surgery can I sue him for being stoned?  Well, the tests can not tell if it is 3 days or 3 hours before... it just isn't processed like alcohol.  Now do you see my issue?

I totally agree with you but I think if it were legalized it would put a demand on scientist to make better testing.

That being said, the level of THC in your system does weaken over time. But kinda like you said, it's not as specific like alcohol. Take for instance two people smoke pot everyday and both quit at the same time. We know that in 2 weeks their THC level will be lower than the day they first quit. But the likely hood of them having the same levels is prop not gonna happen. So if we could better understand an "average" of how long it takes THC to get out of people's systems and under what circumstances that average is different it would be a start. It would also be nice to know what the average THC level is apx. 30 min after smoking. Is it different than a few hours after smoking or even a day?

IDK a lot of about the testing of THC. About all I know is from first hand experience when I was going to therapy for my depression. And they basically told us (because it was a mixed group of people with mental illness/addiction) that everyone had to be drug tested. And that they would monitor your THC levels. (Only if you came back negative) For those who were court ordered to be there a negative would not go back to the courts as them not participating in the program as long as their THC levels were going down.

Online pattylt

  • Savant
  • ******
  • Posts: 936
  • IQ: +81/-8
  • Gender: Female
  • Alex...He never met a meal he didn't like!
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2010, 10:36:08 AM »
Nope, Lil.  You are thinking in terms of alcohol... think in terms of nicotine instead.  We do not have the ability to tell by measurements if someone is stoned at a certain point in time like we can with alcohol.  We know the average rate per weight that someone processes alcohol and can pinpoint pretty damn well if they were past a certain limit of intoxication at a certain point in time.  

We have no ability to do that with marijuana.  The detection window of THC is over two weeks from a single usage and well over a month in heavy users.  If we can not tell WHEN they were intoxicated, we have lost the ability to PROVE they were.  People saying someone was acting stoned isn't very good evidence and who gets to decide that ?

If I had a surgical procedure am I in a position to determine if my doc was acting stoned?  I'm probably more stoned than him!   If he smoked a joint 3 days before my surgery can I sue him for being stoned?  Well, the tests can not tell if it is 3 days or 3 hours before... it just isn't processed like alcohol.  Now do you see my issue?

Umm... that happens NOW. Even though marijuana is illegal, the detection window remains the same. If your surgeon was getting illegally stoned, what would it change? Either way, you can't prove he was stoned when he nicked your artery. So what would legalization change anyway? Pilots get high, doctors get high, hell just about everyone gets high nowadays. Legalizing it wouldn't change whether they were flying a plane or operating stoned or not. And I would hope surgeons and pilots would be smarter than to get stoned before their job.
I agree they might be getting high now.  If my artery were nicked and the MD came back with a positive THC value both the prosecution and defense would have a problem with determining if he/she were stoned at the time of injury.  I don't understand all the legal issues that would be used but I think that the MD's innocence would be on shakier grounds if THC is illegal since it can be shown that he is participating in illegal behavior regardless of whether he/she was stoned at the moment of injury.  If THC is legal, then you can not use the assumption of illegal behavior and would have to prove that he/she was stoned at that specific point in time.  We are unable to do that yet.  If this changes in the future, then my opinion will change as well.  I do not care what an MD does on his/her time off.  I care very much during my surgery.

So, I guess I am concerned about what would happen to a citizens legal recourse if THC were made legal.  As far as I know, we can not, at this point in time, determine the averages.  It is greatly dependent on body fat, liver and kidney function as well as the half life of THC. (This is also somewhat true for alcohol, too, but alcohol has a much shorter half life than THC.)  It just seems that we would have to completely give up our right to sue in such cases due to inability to determine the level of impairment.

My position basically boils down to:  I don't care if someone uses THC  for recreation.  I do care if someone is impaired while performing an important job.  We have no way currently to determine when they imbibed and their level of impairment at the time of the important job and until we can, we need some legal protections to assure that an impaired person performing an important job can be held legally responsible.  Remove the inability to determine impairment and I am comfortable with legalization.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 10:38:05 AM by pattylt »
I have always liked a dog as long as it isn't spelled backwards.

Offline Ravenholm

  • Logician
  • ****
  • Posts: 185
  • IQ: +20/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Ideology: Ignostic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2010, 03:41:28 PM »
@ Pattylt:
Maybe in some cases this could be remedied with tests measuring reaction time and stuff.

It also makes some sense to oblige people in certain positions to refrain from taking substances which may alter their functioning in an unpredictable way. Few people receiving slightly less extra liberty is relatively small price for many receiving more liberty and tackling an important socio-political problem.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 03:43:31 PM by Ravenholm »

Online Kimberly

  • Just a girl.
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Philosopher
  • *****
  • Posts: 6640
  • IQ: +651/-220
  • Gender: Female
  • Breaking ATT since 11-10-08
    • Official ATT Facebook
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2010, 03:57:14 PM »
Aren't there some hospitals that don't allow their employees to smoke cigarettes? Couldn't they do the same for marijuana?

Online pattylt

  • Savant
  • ******
  • Posts: 936
  • IQ: +81/-8
  • Gender: Female
  • Alex...He never met a meal he didn't like!
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2010, 04:43:44 PM »
Aren't there some hospitals that don't allow their employees to smoke cigarettes? Couldn't they do the same for marijuana?
Hmmm, not sure.  At my hospital, smoking is prohibited on the grounds for everyone.  Patients that are hospitalized and are smokers are given nicotine patches and visitors are told that they must be off hospital grounds to smoke.  There is no requirement or testing to prove that employees must be non-smokers and quit programs are free for those that request them.  I have never heard of anyone being fired for being a smoker and assume if anyone was, it was for violating the boundaries and not smoking per say.

For now, I would much prefer to see some deregulation of the THC laws.  No one should go to jail over this.  In Colorado, we have marijuana dispensaries for medical mj and these are causing a ton of political turmoil.  Pretty much anyone that wants medical mj can get it and hundreds are.  It is fun to watch the right wing try to come to terms with wanting to keep mj illegal yet demand that government regulations are killing our country and we need more personal freedoms.  A few of these have admitted that it should mean we legalize the stuff but it still sticks in their craw to say so. 

Good point on a sobriety test of some sort.  I wonder if there are specific tests that would show an impairment due to pot vs normal responses?  We routinely have to test nurses, day or night, if their med counts come up short so why not another specific set of tests if they are suspected of smoking pot?  I see potential for abuse as well.  Undecided on this...
I have always liked a dog as long as it isn't spelled backwards.

Offline The Crystalline Entity

  • Journeyman Gringo
  • ATT Professor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1467
  • IQ: +118/-25
  • Gender: Male
  • Professor only in number, not in content!
    • Moral Purgatory
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2010, 11:03:05 PM »
there is nothing preventing private companies from enacting drug screening procedures and making the results job dependent.  you go to a public hospital and risk the doctor being high because it is partially funded by tax dollars or you go to a private medical facility where the doctors are prohibited from using.  or you buy a more expensive ticket on "Sober Air" instead of the 420 special on "Stoner Air".  I don't see a problem with the market sorting that sort of thing out.
Also I believe a blood test for most narcotics and weed already exist that are substantially more accurate than a UA.  UA's look for metabolized forms of the drugs, blood tests can look for actual drug/blood levels.  if you've got that all you need to do is draw the line in the sand and say this level is criminal if you are partaking in this activity.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
One of Arthur C. Clarke's three "laws" of prediction
“A fool and his money are soon parted.”     "There's a sucker born every minute"
Thomas Tusser                                       P.T. Barnum(??)

Offline Jim

  • Minister of Funny Walks
  • Master Philosopher
  • ********
  • Posts: 3313
  • IQ: +300/-8
  • Ideology: Ideot
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2010, 07:53:12 AM »
@TCE: Companies and hospitals don't do anything that costs extra money unless it gets them more money or a cost savings that is greater than what they are spending.  So, based on that logic, I'd assume that drug testing is not done for anyone's good, or so that the "public trusts them more" unless there is solid market research to show that it makes them more money.  I'd sooner suspect that it lowers their insurance costs or brings them into line with some government funding requirement.  They do it to fulfill the requirement or to realize savings.

In most companies, you can only go so far with invasive testing.  A major exception would be the military, where, as you know, you are "owned" by them and you will do as they wish.  Otherwise, invasive blood testing would probably lead to employees -- your talent -- leaving the company to work in a less overbearing place.  It's one thing to piss in a cup or take a swab test during the qualifying process when getting a job.  It's another to have to submit to blood tests repeatedly.... unless that job is really kick-ass, pays stupendously, and is really worth keeping.  I'd guess that your "Sober Air" would have fewer good pilots on staff, and your "Sober ER" would have doctors on staff who couldn't find work elsewhere.
Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.   Arthur Schopenhauer

Online Kimberly

  • Just a girl.
  • Global Moderator
  • Master Philosopher
  • *****
  • Posts: 6640
  • IQ: +651/-220
  • Gender: Female
  • Breaking ATT since 11-10-08
    • Official ATT Facebook
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2010, 08:14:52 PM »
Aren't there some hospitals that don't allow their employees to smoke cigarettes? Couldn't they do the same for marijuana?
Hmmm, not sure.  At my hospital, smoking is prohibited on the grounds for everyone.  Patients that are hospitalized and are smokers are given nicotine patches and visitors are told that they must be off hospital grounds to smoke.  There is no requirement or testing to prove that employees must be non-smokers and quit programs are free for those that request them.  I have never heard of anyone being fired for being a smoker and assume if anyone was, it was for violating the boundaries and not smoking per say.

For now, I would much prefer to see some deregulation of the THC laws.  No one should go to jail over this.  In Colorado, we have marijuana dispensaries for medical mj and these are causing a ton of political turmoil.  Pretty much anyone that wants medical mj can get it and hundreds are.  It is fun to watch the right wing try to come to terms with wanting to keep mj illegal yet demand that government regulations are killing our country and we need more personal freedoms.  A few of these have admitted that it should mean we legalize the stuff but it still sticks in their craw to say so. 

Good point on a sobriety test of some sort.  I wonder if there are specific tests that would show an impairment due to pot vs normal responses?  We routinely have to test nurses, day or night, if their med counts come up short so why not another specific set of tests if they are suspected of smoking pot?  I see potential for abuse as well.  Undecided on this...


One of my best friends is a Radiology Tech and she has told me that most of the hospitals around here do a hair follicle test to test for nicotine. And you get fired if they find out you smoke.

This is the closest article I can find about it but I've heard the hospitals in my town are stricter.
tennessee-hospital-bans-employees-off-job-smoking

Offline elzoog

  • ATT Professor
  • *******
  • Posts: 2255
  • IQ: +78/-63
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2010, 10:19:16 PM »
Aren't there some hospitals that don't allow their employees to smoke cigarettes? Couldn't they do the same for marijuana?
Hmmm, not sure.  At my hospital, smoking is prohibited on the grounds for everyone.  Patients that are hospitalized and are smokers are given nicotine patches and visitors are told that they must be off hospital grounds to smoke.  There is no requirement or testing to prove that employees must be non-smokers and quit programs are free for those that request them.  I have never heard of anyone being fired for being a smoker and assume if anyone was, it was for violating the boundaries and not smoking per say.

For now, I would much prefer to see some deregulation of the THC laws.  No one should go to jail over this.  In Colorado, we have marijuana dispensaries for medical mj and these are causing a ton of political turmoil.  Pretty much anyone that wants medical mj can get it and hundreds are.  It is fun to watch the right wing try to come to terms with wanting to keep mj illegal yet demand that government regulations are killing our country and we need more personal freedoms.  A few of these have admitted that it should mean we legalize the stuff but it still sticks in their craw to say so. 

Both the left and the right want the government to deregulate stuff they like, and regulate more strictly stuff they don't like.

The left wants to deregulate marijuana, but wants stricter regulations on meat, saturated fats, cholesterol, and hand guns.

The right wants to deregulate business practices and hand guns, but want to regulate marijuana, who you can marry and illegal immigrants.


Offline The Crystalline Entity

  • Journeyman Gringo
  • ATT Professor
  • *******
  • Posts: 1467
  • IQ: +118/-25
  • Gender: Male
  • Professor only in number, not in content!
    • Moral Purgatory
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2010, 11:58:50 PM »
@TCE: Companies and hospitals don't do anything that costs extra money unless it gets them more money or a cost savings that is greater than what they are spending.  So, based on that logic, I'd assume that drug testing is not done for anyone's good, or so that the "public trusts them more" unless there is solid market research to show that it makes them more money.  I'd sooner suspect that it lowers their insurance costs or brings them into line with some government funding requirement.  They do it to fulfill the requirement or to realize savings.

In most companies, you can only go so far with invasive testing.  A major exception would be the military, where, as you know, you are "owned" by them and you will do as they wish.  Otherwise, invasive blood testing would probably lead to employees -- your talent -- leaving the company to work in a less overbearing place.  It's one thing to piss in a cup or take a swab test during the qualifying process when getting a job.  It's another to have to submit to blood tests repeatedly.... unless that job is really kick-ass, pays stupendously, and is really worth keeping.  I'd guess that your "Sober Air" would have fewer good pilots on staff, and your "Sober ER" would have doctors on staff who couldn't find work elsewhere.

Public hospital equates to government employee, AFAIK all government employees are already subject to random drug screening.  I don't see government funded hospitals being a huge leap for something like this (not that I'm for it).  As to private practices, they could do as they please.  If people feel more comfortable going to a "drug Free" hospital then they would likely pay a higher premium for such services.  I'm sure if it were legalized it would make for a decent insurance break for these sorts of businesses to engage in such testing.  There isn't all that many jobs where the general public would need this sort of assurance.  Your average telemarketer is already high, I doubt there is a demand for them to be sober.  Same goes for data entry, and all the other monotonous jobs that the majority of people work in.
You could also only test after something has happened.  i.e person dies on the table, test the surgeon, bus crashes test the driver etc...  The possibility of many lives lost before someone know obviously exists but that is already the case.  Companies don't know their pilot is an alcoholic until they test them after a plane crash, I don't see a problem with the current status quo being extended to narcotic, pot, whatever.  This is all in addition to the fact that just because it becomes legal doesn't by any measure mean that all people will begin using or even that those who choose to partake would do so irresponsibly.  Those who would be irresponsible probably already do.  Besides the world is a dangerous place, I think people forget that sometimes. 
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
One of Arthur C. Clarke's three "laws" of prediction
“A fool and his money are soon parted.”     "There's a sucker born every minute"
Thomas Tusser                                       P.T. Barnum(??)

Offline Agga

  • Logician
  • ****
  • Posts: 139
  • IQ: +15/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Born-again atheist
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2010, 09:24:47 AM »
$1 trillion spent on fascism in the USA alone!  Seems like good value for money to me.  ::)


"Kick a man in his balls, he falls to his knees.  Kick a woman in her ovaries and she'll punch you in the face!" -GG

Offline JNTB

  • The Intimidator
  • Moderator
  • Master Philosopher
  • *****
  • Posts: 3792
  • IQ: +359/-38
  • Bright, Rational, Atheist
  • Ideology: Atheist
Re: The War on Drugs
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2010, 06:39:40 AM »
Former Mexican president favors legalizing drugs

Quote
(CNN) -- Former Mexican President Vicente Fox has come out in favor of legalizing drugs in an attempt to disrupt the illegal markets that have turned parts of Mexico into battlegrounds.

...

"So, drug consumption is the responsibility of the person who consumes; of the family who is responsible for educating; and of the education system and the socioeconomic context," wrote Fox, who was president from 2000 to 2006. "What we have to do is legalize the production, the sale and the distribution."