Author Topic: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying  (Read 2298 times)

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Offline DTE

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Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« on: January 09, 2008, 01:56:12 PM »
Christians don’t agree on much, particularly about the bible. They agree on very little about what the bible actually says, what it really means, and what parts of it are true and applicable. In fact, the single thing on which Christians seem able to agree is that parts of the bible claiming to count don’t really count and that parts of the bible demanding obedience don’t really require obedience. Naturally, they don’t agree on what those parts are, only that those parts exist.

What Christians don’t understand or simply won’t admit (and why they’re so damned annoying) is that because Christianity professes to be a revealed religion, rejecting any part of the revelation requires rejecting the entire revelation, together with the god it purports to reveal. Of course, the bible claims to be that revelation and a unique source of truth—the inspired revelation of the singular God explaining both his exclusively salvific religion and the source, purpose, and end of the world.

So, let’s examine its reliability as the trustworthy self-disclosure of a condescending god.

The bible reports in Exodus 33:23 that Moses saw the “back parts,” apparently of god’s body, because according to god in verse 20, no man can see god’s face and live. So to protect Moses from such an unfortunate death, god covered Moses’ face with his own hand until his face was safely hidden from view and Moses was able to safely satiate the curiosity by looking at god’s ass. That was certainly thoughtful of god, but here’s the rub: John 1:18 declares that no person, save Jesus, has seen god at any time. That would make sense in light of 1 Timothy 1:17—which asserts that god is, among other things, invisible—but it certainly gives rise to the obvious question: What was Moses looking at when he saw god’s “back parts?” Meanwhile, according to Deuteronomy 34:10, Moses knew god face to face and according to the historical opinion of the church, god had no body at all, because considering Deuteronomy 4:15-16 with John 4:24 and Luke 24:39, we get the following:

“Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female. [Jesus said:] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”1

These are the exact verses adduced by the 1646 version of the Westminster Confession of Faith to “prove” its declaration that the “one only, living, and true God” is “without body, parts, or passions.” Apparently, when declaring truth, church councils ignore contradictory proof texts.

The puzzles don’t end when trying to understand what, how, and who has seen god, either. For example, whether god changes his mind is also a puzzle. According to Genesis 6, observing the utter wickedness of humanity so repented god for having created at all and so grieved his heart that he destroyed his own creation (save the Noahs, of course). That’s powerful repentance and apparently god has a propensity for it, because in Exodus 32, we learn that Moses persuaded god to repent of the evil he intended doing to his people. Nor is Moses the only prophet aware of the divine propensity to repent. In Jonah 3:9, that prophet banks on the same penchant when encouraging Nineveh to repent, and sure enough, the next verse finds god repenting “of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”

This divine propensity to repent is an odd one, though, because James 1:17 tells us that with god there “is no variableness, neither shadow of turning,” and Numbers 23:19 assures us that, “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent,” and mockingly asks us, “hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” 2

Obviously, it’s impossible to reasonably believe all of those things and the honest answer to the bible’s sardonic question must be an equally sardonic, “I dunno.” When confronted with a formal contradiction in the bible, the rational mind concludes that the bible makes false statements and when the subject of those formal contradictions is god, the rational mind concludes that the bible makes false statements about god. The consistent rational mind then proceeds to reject the bible as a reliable revelation of god, to evaluate the bible both in terms of that fact and its internal testimony, and ultimately to reject the bible and the god it purports to reveal. That leaves the rational mind free from struggling with the archaic biblical ethic that approbates rape, slavery, and genocide, while promulgating the subjection of women to men.

Unfortunately, Christians, if not utterly irrational, are certainly not consistently rational individuals and—whether for want of thought, want of courage, or want of honesty—the Christian won’t say, “I dunno.” Therefore, the Christian never arrives at the point of rational activity, rejecting the bible, its ethic, and its god in toto. Instead, the Christian will admit the bible’s failures—explaining them as transcription error, allegory, or cultural limits3–but insist on the bible’s overall validity as a peculiar religious revelation, despite both its failure to cogently reveal anything and its primitive and abhorrent ethic.

Having embraced a self-refuting, ethically repugnant ersatz revelation, the Christian has forfeited any objective religious canon and must adopt a subjective religious standard. Not surprisingly, that canon becomes his or her own predilections, so that every Christian will describe and interpret the bible in a manner that matches his or her intellect (or lack of intellect) ethic, and personality, using the bible’s own objective unreliability and primitive content as reason to reject what doesn’t appeal. Rather than rationally rejecting the entire revelation, the Christian eclectically picks, chooses, dismisses, ignores, and rationalizes the bible’s various and conflicting commands, ethics, accounts, and contradictions to self-project her or himself into the bible.

Some Christians will dismiss more of the bible, others less, some in pious sounding ways, and others more flagrantly. The better educated, more articulate Christians might perform mental genuflections to explain biblical contradictions and write grand systematic theologies to describe the gods they project, while the uneducated ones might tell you only what they feel in their hearts and the religious yuppies will tell you what meaning they take from the bible. What each Christian is telling you, though, in her or his own way, is that he or she is god. The result is a rank and unique pride that claims a divine stamp of approval upon the Christian’s own life, while rejecting both all of the bible that doesn’t appeal to her or his liking and the gods constructed by other Christians, reflecting other parts of the bible.

Ultimately, the god to which every particular Christian prays is identical to the god which every particular Christian shaves: The god in the mirror. It’s an arrogant syncretism of life and religion that we call Self-Projection as God (SPAG).

For a practical demonstration, just pick a pair of contrary or contradictory bible verses that are on either side of a sensitive issue and ask a Christian what she or he thinks about them. The better you know the bible and the Christian, the easier it will be to pick the appropriately contrary verses, but the result will always be the same: The Christian will start rationalizing and explaining the contradiction in a way that accommodates them to his or her own life.

Press the Christian on inconsistencies and you’ll find that she or he sit upon the horns of a dilemma: A revelation the Christian can neither dismiss nor embrace in whole. On the one hand, the bible contains many paradoxical statements, contrary accounts, and even a formal contradiction or two. Invariably, it also has commands that the Christian does not wish to obey, ethics of which the Christian does not approve, and revelations of a god that the Christian does not want to worship. On the other hand, the Christian needs the bible to believe certain things he or she does hold dear. Whether it’s the beliefs that his dear old grandma is “in a better place”, that there was once a very special baby in a feeding trough, and that no matter how bad life gets there is a god to love us and make it all better, or the beliefs that grandma “went to hell,” that there was once a very special baby in a feeding trough, and that no matter how bad life gets, there is a god to hate our enemies and send them to hell, the Christian needs the bible to hold onto those things. They don’t make sense without religion.


Understand that we’re not merely intending to demonstrate simply that the bible is an inconsistent hodgepodge of ancient mythology and antiquated ethics rife with error, a Godian Knot that cannot be unraveled. That’s an obvious prima facie case and it’s not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that because it’s an obvious prima facie case, that SPAG is the necessary and universal form of Christianity in practice, an absolute identity: All Christianity is Self-Projection as God.

Of course, the good news here is that at some level, SPAG is the Christian’s tacit admission to what we rationalists understand clearly: Far from being an inspired text from an eternal and unchanging god that is truth itself, the bible is a primitive book written in primitive cultures by primitive men with agendas and intentions that are below the dignity of any decent thinking person today. The bad news is that by the Christian having made that tacit admission without arriving at the point of rational activity, the bible has become a book that no enlightened person would rationally embrace,4but simultaneously a book that otherwise enlightened men and women embrace and defend, while—for the most part—refusing to defend it.

The Christian has not finally embraced the bible, but projected his or her own values, ego, and opinions an external revelation of god, claiming it as the bible’s god. That is the god the Christian will defend, not any historic definition of god. Not a “more biblical” [sic] version of god, and certainly not another person’s Self-Projection as God. It changes the ground of debate with the Christian. The dispute is no longer over the veracity and value of the bible as words bound in leather covers. We decisively have won that battle, but the Christians have outflanked us.

Convincing the Christian to reject the bible is simple, but convincing her or him to cease Self-Projecting as God proves far more difficult. Rather than filtering the evidence for god against reality and determining what it means, the Christian filters everything through his or her SPAG, doing whatever it takes to make it fit. While we continue to fire bullets cast in a rational mold at the non-existent god that we have already convinced the Christian to reject, the living-breathing god the Christian worships stands before us, freshly shaved and impervious to our logical ammunition.

It’s an infuriating battle to fight. We demonstrate that the bible is a self-contradictory book replete with inconsistency and error that could not stand scrutiny in an American court of law. The Christian will agree and insist that his god is true and good. We demonstrate that the bible is an appalling book replete with heinous accounts of atrocity that would have Yahweh tried as a war criminal under the Geneva Convention. The Christian will agree and insist that her god is true and good. We demonstrate that the bible is a primitive book replete with approbations of slavery and misogyny that would be rejected by any enlightened society. The Christian will agree and insist that his god is true. We say that the bible is an antiquated book abounding in anti-scientific accounts of the natural world and fanciful mythological tales that belie an omnipotent creator as its author. The Christian will agree and insist that his god is true.

We marvel at the Christian’s imperviousness to our logical arsenal until we finally throw up hands in frustration and concede, not the content of the argument, but the wherewithal to continue in the quagmire of irrational guerilla warfare. Meanwhile, the Christians win the war of attrition and elect leaders that go to war based on discussions with god about faulty intelligence, which is why religion is not a harmless and private matter.

As long as men and women are claiming to be god, Christianity must be objected and defeated, but the battle is not waged over an objective religion with an objective revelation. The battle has shifted to the Christian’s mind and psychology and the point of contention has become his or her claim of jus divinum for personal predilections. Focusing on the new objective is a matter of shifting our focus from the ridiculous religion that is objective Christianity to the ridiculous incongruity of SPAG in an otherwise intelligent and enlightened person’s life.

Offline rickymooston

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2008, 01:08:18 PM »
Christians don’t agree on much, particularly about the bible. They agree on very little about what the bible actually says, what it really means, and what parts of it are true and applicable. ...

Actually, for the most part, they agree on quite alot. Most of their disagreements are minor, although some noise has been made about these.

You have to consider that the essense of christianity emphases the new testament; in the same way that islam emphasizes the koran over previous (corrupted) holy books.

If you then focus on what goes on in the new testament, you understand the essense of christianity. Some people have used christianity to obtain worldly ends and have typically put more emphasis on the old testament.

In addition, normal people are NOT passive. Christianity being the official religion, has caused some of its passivity to be ignored. In addition, passive people don't last very long against aggressive people. So, those christians that remained more passive, typically got conquered by other faiths such as Islam.

One interesting thing in Christianity is the generally accepted TRINITY.
It is not explicitly written in the bible and yet, most christianities in fact do seem to accept the trinity. That's curious

Offline DTE

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2008, 01:30:15 PM »
Christians don’t agree on much, particularly about the bible. They agree on very little about what the bible actually says, what it really means, and what parts of it are true and applicable. ...

Actually, for the most part, they agree on quite alot. Most of their disagreements are minor, although some noise has been made about these.

That's ridiculous. Here are several areas that would appear to be Christian basics, essentials of the faith, upon which Christians have historically—often vociferously, and occasionally even to torture and death—have disagreed:

The work of God the Father in saving men.
The work of God the Spirit in saving men.
The work of God the Son in saving men.

The work of a man in saving himself.
The place of good works in obtaining/maintaining salvation.

Whether Christ is the lone intermediary between men and God.

The circumstances leading to Christ's return.
What will happen to the church before his return.

What constitutes "The Church."
What constitutes a church.
How "The Church" should be governed.
If and how a person may join or leave a church.

Who may preach.
Who may officiate a sacrament.
How many sacraments exist.

What really happens at The Lord's Supper.
Whether Christ's literal body is masticated.
Who can drink the wine.
Is the wine literally Christ's blood?

To whom baptism is to be administered.
How baptism is to be administered.
What (if anything) constitutes an invalid baptism.
What constitutes a valid baptism.

The ongoing existence of miracles, tongue speaking, etc...
The nature and extent of biblical authority.

Offline kcrady

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2008, 08:27:48 AM »
If God is omnipotent...

Why couldn't he make it possible for Moses to see his face without dying?

Also, I must admit I find it rather amusing that the Bible teaches that God's face is uglier than his ass--so much more so in fact that his face has the Medusa Effecttm or something like it.

Offline generousgeorge

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2008, 08:29:40 AM »
Hey!  Maybe Assy is God?  :o  Just kidding! Just kidding!
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Offline DTE

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2008, 09:51:29 AM »
Also, I must admit I find it rather amusing that the Bible teaches that God's face is uglier than his ass--so much more so in fact that his face has the Medusa Effecttm or something like it.

Biblegod has a nice booty and that's a fact.

Moses likes big butts and he cannot lie...

Offline Psionic Pangolin

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2008, 06:44:09 PM »
If God is omnipotent...

Why couldn't he make it possible for Moses to see his face without dying?

Also, I must admit I find it rather amusing that the Bible teaches that God's face is uglier than his ass--so much more so in fact that his face has the Medusa Effecttm or something like it.

I always found this part of the Bible interesting, because it's quite similar to many Greek, Roman, and Egyptian myths (and probably plenty of others that I should know).  Mortals could not, for the most part, look upon gods or they would be risk blindness or death.  The gods usually showed up in either human or animal forms (cows and stags were popular ones) when they wanted to converse/sleep with mortals. 
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Offline Formerfundy

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2008, 02:26:59 AM »
DTE,

Thank you for this post. I agree with it 100%. SO big +1 to you.

There are so many things the average christian does on a daily basis that would be absurd if they were some how led by God via spirit. Not to mention all of the bickering which is by no means minor.

Most chrsitians of various branches believe that almost all other christians of any other branches are going to hell. Plain and simple.

So if eternity in Hell is a minor difference, then I guess I agree that they only have minor differences.
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Offline rickymooston

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2008, 10:46:40 PM »
...
Most chrsitians of various branches believe that almost all other christians of any other branches are going to hell. Plain and simple.
....

I think this is far less true now than it was in times past.

Indeed, even Billy Graham is a believer all the "mainstream" guys who have same basic gospel are going to be saved.

He probably believes Johavah Witnesses and Mormons are in big trouble but well ... they add stuff after the fact.

Offline prince vegeta

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 05:14:28 AM »
Quote
“In fact, the single thing on which Christians seem able to agree is that parts of the bible claiming to count don’t really count and that parts of the bible demanding obedience don’t really require obedience.”

The single thing that Christians do agree upon is that Jesus suffered for our sins on the cross for the remission of sins. How can one overlook this fact, it is the foundation for the Christian faith. Anything less and it is not Christianity. 

Quote
“but here’s the rub: John 1:18 declares that no person, save Jesus, has seen God at any time.”

Is that what it really says? John 1:18 “No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.” Yeah that clears it up for me, you forgot the last part there at the end. This apparent contradiction is only given validity if you deny the deity of Christ. John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" Prior to the Incarnation of the Son, no one had seen the Father, for it is through Christ that the Father is revealed. If you have a true understanding of the trinity then there is no biblical contradiction. No one ever saw God the Father and what Sara, Jacob, Moses etc, saw was Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ can be found throughout the Old Testament in various forms and typologies.

Quote
“in Exodus 32, we learn that Moses persuaded god to repent of the evil he intended doing to his people. Nor is Moses the only prophet aware of the divine propensity to repent. In Jonah 3:9, that prophet banks on the same penchant when encouraging Nineveh to repent, and sure enough, the next verse finds god repenting “of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”

Do you actually believe that Moses and Jonah persuaded God to repent or changed His mind. How about the story of Abraham bartering with God over the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The God of the bible is omniscient, so He would know what Abraham would ask for before hand, as well as the end result. Should God tell Abraham what His plans are concerning the destruction of these cities. God is dealing with Abraham on a personnel level, but even before the conversation began God had already decided the outcome. Gen 18:17 "The LORD said, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do". There was no change or compromise on His part, but in fact God desires intersession from Abraham, Moses, Jonah etc. The God of the bible is a personable being and wants interaction from His people, which He created in His image. You’re giving a narrow naive interpretation that is not supported under scrutiny.









Offline Ehud

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 05:45:06 AM »
Quote
For a practical demonstration, just pick a pair of contrary or contradictory bible verses that are on either side of a sensitive issue and ask a Christian what she or he thinks about them. The better you know the bible and the Christian, the easier it will be to pick the appropriately contrary verses, but the result will always be the same: The Christian will start rationalizing and explaining the contradiction in a way that accommodates them to his or her own life.

When have I given evidence that this would be my response? Many Catholics would agree that you fail here. It amazes me how many former Christians were (and continue to be) fundamentalists who expect that the faith should be dependent on the Bible. The faith depends on the witness of the Church. Before any notion of any kind of infallibility or miracle come into play, the believing Christian trusts that the Church did not make up the Jesus story for kicks.
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Offline DTE

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 11:48:59 AM »
I've discussed this before-- you're a Self-Projector of others. It changes not the fact that you must deal with contrary and contradictory verses. For example, in the case of total depravity, your authority rationalizes the contraries in a certain way, contra the calvinists, arminians, and lutherans, that each rationalize the contraries in other ways.

The rationalization remains necessary and you're no less a SPAG for lacking the intelligence, ability, or desire to think for yourself.

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 12:00:31 PM »
Oh yeah? Well Catholics aren't really Christians, don't you know!

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Offline disenchantedidealist

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2008, 05:03:10 PM »
"Actually, for the most part, they agree on quite alot. Most of their disagreements are minor, although some noise has been made about these."

i have never met two christians that agree completely on everything. they do agree on the major parts, but the details change frequently.

when do many, many minor disagreements become a major disagreement?
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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2008, 05:12:09 PM »
"Actually, for the most part, they agree on quite alot. Most of their disagreements are minor, although some noise has been made about these."

i have never met two christians that agree completely on everything. they do agree on the major parts, but the details change frequently.

when do many, many minor disagreements become a major disagreement?

It depends on the time period, I think. Now-a-days, you can safely question the veracity of the Old Testament, and still remain a Christian. 500 years ago, and you could be torched alive for claiming that Jesus and God are not "consubstantial", whatever the hell that means.
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Offline disenchantedidealist

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2008, 05:27:07 PM »
"Actually, for the most part, they agree on quite alot. Most of their disagreements are minor, although some noise has been made about these."

i have never met two christians that agree completely on everything. they do agree on the major parts, but the details change frequently.

when do many, many minor disagreements become a major disagreement?

It depends on the time period, I think. Now-a-days, you can safely question the veracity of the Old Testament, and still remain a Christian. 500 years ago, and you could be torched alive for claiming that Jesus and God are not "consubstantial", whatever the hell that means.

i am waiting for when the church finally decides to just sweep the old testament under the rug. it doesnt have that 'feel good' feel that the new testament has , which i think is going to be necessary to help 'convert' young people of today. most sects have almost stopped using the old testament in its teachings anyways, except the few, rare, feel good parts.

in recent memory, i can not recall the last time i was at church and heard a reading/gospel from the old testament, i could be wrong though - as i pay little attention
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Offline fishjie

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2008, 08:04:04 PM »
Getting rid of the OT will be a big step forward for christianity.      When they finally get rid of the whole "hell" doctrine, then we'll finally have a fun, happy go lucky religion.   
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2008, 08:46:21 PM »
Havn't a few sects done just that, though?  Dismissed the Old Testament?  I know the Christian Science sect has.


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Offline fishjie

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2008, 08:51:11 PM »
wouldn't that make them christian cults though?   until the mainstream guys like protestants and catholics dismiss the OT, any such movement wouldn't gain much traction.     

either way, if christianity would discard most of the bible, leaving maybe psalms, bits of the gospel, and a few of the epistles, it'd be a religion that i'd be down with.    oh well.   one can dream.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 09:05:20 PM »
Even if they do get rid of the OT, there's still the hateful drivel that Paul spewed out against women, etc.


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Offline fishjie

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2008, 09:50:16 PM »
yeah there's still some troublesome bits in the NT, such as that whole hell thing.     but its a step in the right direction.     really i have don't have that much hostility against the concept of religion in general, its just that the religions that were created millennium ago were created by ignorant people, and i think religion would be good, if only it got an update.    sort of like a software patch.    christianity v 7.0 new and improved with EVOLUTION!

from what i've seen, each new release of christianity gets better and better, so i have high hopes for it.   
Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!

translation:   MESS WITH YHWH AND BURN IN HELL!!!!!!

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 10:52:16 PM »
I don't know...successive versions of improved dogmatic software are only going to get you so far if you're running them on the ENIAC that is supernaturalism.


"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneousas to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin."    [Cardinal Bellarmino 1615, during the trial of Galileo]

Offline fishjie

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2008, 12:06:34 PM »
well i like the new christianity.      there's no more slavery.     people can have interracial marriages (note the arguments used against gay marriage now are identical to the ones used against interracial marriages a few decades earlier).    there's no more geocentrism.   and so on and so forth.
Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!

translation:   MESS WITH YHWH AND BURN IN HELL!!!!!!

Offline disenchantedidealist

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2008, 01:12:35 PM »
well i like the new christianity.      there's no more slavery.     people can have interracial marriages (note the arguments used against gay marriage now are identical to the ones used against interracial marriages a few decades earlier).    there's no more geocentrism.   and so on and so forth.

yeah it just keeps changing and changing though, like it never had absolute truth to begin with...
http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=221.msg1612#msg1612


-Believe in me...even though I don't reveal myself to you.
-Do as I say...even though my instructions are unclear.
-If you don't obey, you'll be punished severely.

Religion in a nut shell

Offline fishjie

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2008, 01:25:14 PM »
exactly.    it will evolve into a humanistic mellow religion.    i like dan dennett's thought experiment where he outlined the various outcomes of xtianity.   one of them was a world where xtianity and its denominations were more like social clubs where people could hang out.      the beliefs and all that noise were just that, noise, and the more important thing was just hanging out, camaraderie, and having a good time.     
Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!

translation:   MESS WITH YHWH AND BURN IN HELL!!!!!!

Offline kcrady

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2008, 08:02:25 PM »
Do you actually believe that Moses and Jonah persuaded God to repent or changed His mind.


No, except in the same way we believe that Darth Vader used a red lightsaber.  IOW, that is what the work of fiction we're discussing says.  When the Bible says "And Yahweh repented..." the most parsimonious interpretation is to accept that it means "And Yahweh repented..."  You "interpret" it to mean, "And Yahweh had infinite foreknowledge of events and had pre-decided what he wanted to do, but he pretended to be deciding something else and lied to people about it, so he could be sociable and get those people to 'intercede' with him to do what he planned to do anyway.  Oh, and he wasn't lying when he told them he intended to do things he did not intend to do, or when he had his 'inspired' writer write that he had in fact 'repented.'  Because...well...he just wasn't, OK?"

The fact that you have to resort to this sort of theological Matrix-dodging and spin is the very thing DTE is talking about in his post.  You decide what the Bible is "supposed" to say, and if it says something different, you just decree that it means what you want it to, by a sort of individual Papal Infallibility.  In a nutshell, SPAG.

When have I given evidence that this would be my response? Many Catholics would agree that you fail here. It amazes me how many former Christians were (and continue to be) fundamentalists who expect that the faith should be dependent on the Bible. The faith depends on the witness of the Church.


This is an excellent point atheists don't use enough.  "The Bible" as we know it did not exist for the first three centuries of Christian history.  There is no hint anywhere in "the Bible" that there would be any such thing as "the Bible" or a set of canonical "New Testament scriptures."  There is certainly no list of books specified as approved by Jesus and/or the Apostles.  The fact that the "New Testament" is made up mostly of a collection of old mail (letters written to various Christian communities often for very specific purposes, e.g. the Book of Philemon) collected in an ad hoc fashion is powerful evidence that the authors of the Epistles themselves did not know of or anticipate the need to create a set of "official scriptures" for an organization intended to last for many centuries.  The frequent apocalyptic references show that they thought the End would be coming Any Day Now, so there would be no possibility of a long-lasting Christian Church in need of new scriptures to pass down from generation to generation.

It was only centuries later, when the need for an enduring institution and a specified set of scriptures was self-evident, that "the Bible" was assembled and voted on, by what was to become the Roman Catholic Church, under the auspices of Emperor Constantine.  "The Bible" is a creature of the Church, not the other way around.  Since Protestants reject the authority of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox1 Churches, they also reject the authority that selected the books that comprise "the Bible" from the body of available religious texts.  "Sola scriptura" has no basis to stand on, since it is church tradition (which the doctrine of "sola scriptura" was invented to supplant) that defined the "scriptures" to begin with.

With "the Bible" thus disposed of as a foundation for Christian faith, that leaves "the witness of the (Catholic or Orthodox) Church."  One weakness of this pillar of faith is that "the Church" as a single, unified "witness" did not exist until the Council of Nicea at the earliest.  The earliest Christian writings we have (the Epistles of the New Testament) are full of warnings against and attacks on other Christians who had different beliefs than the authors.  Those other Christians had their own Gospels, Epistles, and creeds.  The first list of "canonical" books was published by Marcion, who taught that Yahweh, the Old Testament deity was an inferior and malevolent being, not the purely good God whom Jesus referred to as his Father, and that Jesus came to set us free from Yahweh's power.2

Then there were the Jewish Christians (who believed Christians should adhere to Jewish laws and traditions) and the various flavors of Gnostics.  In short, there was no such thing as a single "Christianity" until after the Church of Rome merged with the Roman Empire and was able to impose "unity" by force.  Even then, "the Church" was continually fighting to suppress "heresies."  Whenever the Roman Church was not able to impose its will, a "schism" resulted, such as the split between the Roman and Eastern Orthodox churches, and the Protestant "Reformation."  In other words, there is not now, and for all practical intents and purposes, has never been, any such thing as "the witness of the Church."  Rather we have "the (conflicting) witnesses of the (conflicting) churches."

And so, neither "the Bible" nor "Christian tradition" can provide a solid foundation for Christian belief.  Off course we see no evidence of any omnipotent Christian deity acting to straighten any of this out.

NOTES:

1. The Eastern Orthodox church split from Catholicism centuries after the Council of Nicea.  They can arguably claim "Apostolic Succession" in the same way the Roman Catholics can.

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon

Offline prince vegeta

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #26 on: April 18, 2008, 12:53:35 AM »
Quote
“When the Bible says "And Yahweh repented..." the most parsimonious interpretation is to accept that it means "And Yahweh repented..."  You "interpret" it to mean, "And Yahweh had infinite foreknowledge of events and had pre-decided what he wanted to do, but he pretended to be deciding something else and lied to people about it, so he could be sociable and get those people to 'intercede' with him to do what he planned to do anyway.  Oh, and he wasn't lying when he told them he intended to do things he did not intend to do, or when he had his 'inspired' writer write that he had in fact 'repented.'  Because...well...he just wasn't, OK?"

There are plenty of passages that state that God doesn’t repent, 1 Samuel 15:29, Ezekiel 24:14, James 1:7, Malachi 3:6. And some say that God does repent, Genesis 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Deuteronomy 32:36, 1 Samuel 15:11, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Jeremiah 15:6…….There is no contradiction. That word repentance is associated with repentance of sin and this is correct. The word repent simply means to be sorry and to make a change. Can God repent, of course He can, but His nature is constant. Like a father’s love for his child it does not waiver. Though he can make various choices pertaining to his child, he can change his mind or be remorseful. It is the same with the Lord. Your logic gives new understanding to Matthew 23:24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 12:56:24 AM by prince vegeta »

Offline disenchantedidealist

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2008, 09:19:45 PM »
Quote
“When the Bible says "And Yahweh repented..." the most parsimonious interpretation is to accept that it means "And Yahweh repented..."  You "interpret" it to mean, "And Yahweh had infinite foreknowledge of events and had pre-decided what he wanted to do, but he pretended to be deciding something else and lied to people about it, so he could be sociable and get those people to 'intercede' with him to do what he planned to do anyway.  Oh, and he wasn't lying when he told them he intended to do things he did not intend to do, or when he had his 'inspired' writer write that he had in fact 'repented.'  Because...well...he just wasn't, OK?"

There are plenty of passages that state that God doesn’t repent, 1 Samuel 15:29, Ezekiel 24:14, James 1:7, Malachi 3:6. And some say that God does repent, Genesis 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Deuteronomy 32:36, 1 Samuel 15:11, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Jeremiah 15:6…….There is no contradiction. That word repentance is associated with repentance of sin and this is correct. The word repent simply means to be sorry and to make a change. Can God repent, of course He can, but His nature is constant. Like a father’s love for his child it does not waiver. Though he can make various choices pertaining to his child, he can change his mind or be remorseful. It is the same with the Lord. Your logic gives new understanding to Matthew 23:24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.

have you ever heard of an abusive parent? like a drunk dad who comes home and beats his kids for doing nothing but being there. imo, god sounds like a power-drunk drunk, we are punished for doing nothing but simply existing
http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php?topic=221.msg1612#msg1612


-Believe in me...even though I don't reveal myself to you.
-Do as I say...even though my instructions are unclear.
-If you don't obey, you'll be punished severely.

Religion in a nut shell

Offline prince vegeta

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2008, 01:30:13 AM »
This is an excellent point atheists don't use enough.  "The Bible" as we know it did not exist for the first three centuries of Christian history.  There is no hint anywhere in "the Bible" that there would be any such thing as "the Bible" or a set of canonical "New Testament scriptures."  There is certainly no list of books specified as approved by Jesus and/or the Apostles.  The fact that the "New Testament" is made up mostly of a collection of old mail (letters written to various Christian communities often for very specific purposes, e.g. the Book of Philemon) collected in an ad hoc fashion is powerful evidence that the authors of the Epistles themselves did not know of or anticipate the need to create a set of "official scriptures" for an organization intended to last for many centuries.  The frequent apocalyptic references show that they thought the End would be coming Any Day Now, so there would be no possibility of a long-lasting Christian Church in need of new scriptures to pass down from generation to generation.

It was only centuries later, when the need for an enduring institution and a specified set of scriptures was self-evident, that "the Bible" was assembled and voted on, by what was to become the Roman Catholic Church, under the auspices of Emperor Constantine.  "The Bible" is a creature of the Church, not the other way around.  Since Protestants reject the authority of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox1 Churches, they also reject the authority that selected the books that comprise "the Bible" from the body of available religious texts.  "Sola scriptura" has no basis to stand on, since it is church tradition (which the doctrine of "sola scriptura" was invented to supplant) that defined the "scriptures" to begin with.

With "the Bible" thus disposed of as a foundation for Christian faith, that leaves "the witness of the (Catholic or Orthodox) Church."  One weakness of this pillar of faith is that "the Church" as a single, unified "witness" did not exist until the Council of Nicea at the earliest.  The earliest Christian writings we have (the Epistles of the New Testament) are full of warnings against and attacks on other Christians who had different beliefs than the authors.  Those other Christians had their own Gospels, Epistles, and creeds.  The first list of "canonical" books was published by Marcion, who taught that Yahweh, the Old Testament deity was an inferior and malevolent being, not the purely good God whom Jesus referred to as his Father, and that Jesus came to set us free from Yahweh's power.


Marcion basically gave the first introduction to replacement theology. To him the God of the Jews was opposite from that of Jesus in the New Testament. He could not see the Old Testament foreshadowing of Christ, which is completely infused with references to Christ. His only work is Antitheses which is fragmented and gives light to his beliefs. There is little known of him and what is known is mostly gathered from his opponents Irenaeus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Tertullian etc. They all referred to him as a heretic or worse and gave just cause to avoid his teachings. But I do like the wiki references, what better place to draw an academic profile. The fact of the matter is that the New Testament is the most well documented ancient text bar none with there being over 20,000 surviving manuscripts with a divergence of thirty years and a ninety-nine percent of them being in complete agreement. The works of Herodotus, Tacitus, Thucidides, and other ancient manuscripts are all considered reliable by historians, yet they have only have a handful of surviving documents with a divergence of over a thousands years. The apparent unreliable construct of the NT canon comes from liberal theologians who jump to conclusions that they cannot validate, case in point Marcion. The canon or list was affirming what the church had already accepted as authoritative and the issue wasn’t what books were included, but what was not included. The New Testament books are further confirmed in the letters of the church fathers. The entire NT can be constructed without the manuscript evidence just from the letters they sent each other. Yeah they were accepted well before the canonization of scripture. Marcion has his place in church history, but it does undermine the reliability of the New Testament.

“The church did not create the canon, "but came to recognize, accept, affirm, and confirm the self-authenticating quality of certain documents that imposed themselves as such upon the Church. If this fact is obscured, one comes into serious conflict not with dogma but with history." We may freely learn from the non-canonical literature, and it may be that some of that literature contains authentic strands of teaching by Jesus. Nevertheless, we have our canon. We are each free to take it or leave it; and if it offend thee - take up scissors and paste, and make what thou considerest a better effort than others!”  http://www.tektonics.org/lp/ntcanon.html
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/ca/ca_04.htm
http://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html
http://www.grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences/12date.html
http://www.totustuus.com/dating.htm
http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/theological-dictionary/TD1W0402.pdf
http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/theological-dictionary/TD3W0402.pdf
http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/theological-dictionary/TD1W0502.pdf
http://www.biblicaldefense.org/Writings/new_testament_reliability.htm


Offline prince vegeta

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Re: Shaving God: Why Christians are so damned annoying
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2008, 01:50:22 AM »
have you ever heard of an abusive parent? like a drunk dad who comes home and beats his kids for doing nothing but being there. imo, god sounds like a power-drunk drunk, we are punished for doing nothing but simply existing

Nice analogy, not. You cant apply it to the God of the bible. If we are discussing this from a biblical perspective then your argument is flawed. God considers man as being wicked and guilty of sin.